INTERVIEW: Building Science Pioneer Dr. Joe Lstiburek on
the Good, Bad and Ugly Side of Buildings
Posted By
Andrew Michler On March 11, 2013
@ 12:05 am In
Architecture,Interviews,Sustainable Building
The term ‘building science’ is used quite often now
in sustainable building circles, but much of what we understand of it
can be traced back to the work of
Dr.
Joe Lstiburek [4], founder of
Building Science Corporation [5].
He is anything but your typical
engineer [6] or scientist
who spends time crunching numbers or hiding away in a lab. Lstiburek has spent
most of his career out in the field, testing and examining what
works and what doesn’t. Many of the building standards today — from
building codes to ASHRE to testing methodology — have his finger prints
all over them, and his tough love criticism of
building design is undercut with his wry humor and, of course,
an encyclopedic knowledge of building construction. Read on to learn
where buildings go wrong and what we can do about it.
Inhabitat: What does building science really mean? Did it
not exist 50 years ago?
Joe Lstiburek: Well, it always existed. It’s
really the technical side of
architecture [7] that
architects gave up. If architects did their job there wouldn’t be any need for
building science. You know, I’m flabbergasted by the architectural profession
giving up control of such a profitable part of the industry, which is the
interaction of the building enclosure with the climate and the people and the
mechanical system.
You know, this occurred because of the change in the focus
on the education of the architects, the school. They’re focused – they’re
trained in art. They’re not trained in physics and material science to actually
execute their designs.
Back in the day, 100 years ago, or maybe 50 years ago in
Europe, architects were trained like master builders. They understood
structure. They understood mechanical. They understood physics. They understood
material science. They understood how everything worked together. The focus now
on the architectural education is all art and what’s missing are all of those
other pieces — one of those missing pieces is building science or building
physics.
Inhabitat: Do they feel like it’s not their problem? Such
as how a building envelope will necessarily function in the real world — that
if it’s down on paper and it’s been done before, then that’s okay?
Joe Lstiburek: I can’t speak for the
architectural community, although I often try to – that is I think the
arrogance of the profession drives me crazy. I think they feel it’s beneath
their dignity to worry about these little, minor problems, like how to keep the
rain out of the building, how to keep the air in and the air out. Let somebody
else worry about that. I’m here to make an uplifting building to society to basically
send a message about how this building is going to make this place a better
place to live, and the people that live and work in it are better people.
That’s what my mission is. This other stuff somebody else will worry about.
Inhabitat: So how do you get them excited about building
science again?
Joe Lstiburek: Well, I don’t. What happens is
the legal profession does that for us. The most effective technology transfer
in the world is a lawsuit. They never call us when things are going well. They
call us, “Oh, my God! We’re getting our ass sued because this problem
occurred.”
Inhabitat: One of my favorite things you talk about
is how highrises eighty years ago were more energy efficient than just about
anything built today, especially with curtain walls and glass.
Joe Lstiburek: Well, it’s real easy. It’s just
glass. I mean we have glass boxes and glass and steel are inefficient. Back in
the day we had glazing ratios that were 10 and 15 percent and mass walls. An R2
curtain wall can’t compare to an R8 mass wall assembly. It’s not even close.
Inhabitat: So we talk about these advanced materials,
advanced glazing options we have now and, you know, they go on and on and on.
They are still nothing compared to a masonry wall as far as
energy efficiency?
Joe Lstiburek: They’re nothing to the old
approaches, but in the last 50 years the architectural profession has managed
to piss away every energy advance that the rest of us have made because of all
of the glass. I mean it’s just amazing to me.
And the hypocrisy is stunning. They blame everything. We’re
here to save the planet. We’re here because it’s real important for our carbon
footprint. And yet they turn out one glass box after another glass box after
another glass box and they’re interested in what the emission rate of the paint
is, and what the embodied energy of the carpet is, and the biggest problem is
their original design. That just drives me crazy.
LEED [8] is
a colossal joke for that reason. They equate a bike rack with the same
efficiency as the enclosure.
Inhabitat: Everybody who wants to point LEED’s weakness
uses the bike rack argument.
Joe Lstiburek: Guess what? For good reason. And
you know what? They’re idiots to do that and they refuse to limit glazing
ratios and they don’t measure s***.
Inhabitat: And there’s no commissioning of the envelope.
Joe Lstiburek: No. It’s crazy, and you know
what? We’ve been collecting the numbers and they’re pathetic. What’s great is
that, okay, now they’re going to fix it, nothing like taking a really flawed
and screwed up program and having to fix it.
Well, the
lawsuit
that Gifford started [9] gave them a wake-up call. The
fact that people are now publishing the results and they’re pretty poor has
given a wake-up call. At the end of the day, LEED is going to get fixed because
they have no choice. It’s just that we’ve wasted a decade.
Inhabitat: It wasn’t just that lawsuit. You really
started harping on how weak the LEED energy and atmosphere credits were in
2008.
Joe Lstiburek: I couldn’t understand why a
licensed engineer or a licensed architect would have an outside bunch with a
checklist supplement their professional knowledge and experience. I mean how
insulting is that? Because that tells me that you are so poor as a professional
that you believe that the judgment of a third-party checklist is more
significant than your knowledge.
And experience as an architect or engineer. Are you kidding
me? I mean I would have thrown them out of my office. I would have said, “What?
Get the hell out of here.”
You go and you do this checklist thing and you’re telling me
that I have to superimpose this arbitrarian, capricious checklist on my skill
as an architect, as an engineer. I mean that, to me, is flabbergasting.
Inhabitat: So is it the same effect of when architects
gave up the idea of building science and said somebody else can worry about it.
The LEED checklist gave the architects the opportunity for somebody else to
worry about what green building really is?
Joe Lstiburek: The architects have caused their
own problem and only the architects can solve their own problem and I have
faith that the architectural profession will fix itself. Architects need to get
in charge of the process again, totally in charge of the process, and for that
they need the education and the experience to do that.
There should be no reason that we have all of these outside
consultants that are sucking bits of the architectural key out of the process.
The architects should grab that for themselves and deliver the whole building
the right way, to be the boss of the job, to be the master builders again. I
mean my daughter is an architect and I keep telling them, “Your generation has
to fix this. You guys need to be in charge again.”
Inhabitat: We talked about the curtain wall or glass
being a key concern of energy efficiency in buildings. What else is a major
issue right now?
Joe Lstiburek: In my view, over-ventilation.
Inhabitat: Is that ASHRAE’s fault or just people are
doing above and beyond?
Joe Lstiburek: Well, ASHRAE is dominated by a
vested interest in politics and LEED is even worse, if you can imagine that. I
mean could you imagine getting a LEED point for increasing the ventilation 30
percent above ASHRAE and ASHRAE’s is already out of control.
The answer is source control, dilution is not the solution
to indoor pollution and increasing ventilation rates is a horrible problem. The
right way to do it is to not have the contaminant built into the building in
the first place. And despite all of the people saying that there’s a clear link
between certain levels of contaminants and medical effects, the epidemiology
hasn’t been done.
People claim that it’s been done, but believe it or not, we
don’t have the information in houses. We don’t know what the contaminants are.
They have not been measured carefully and we’re making national policy
decisions on ventilation going blind, with a bunch of people just getting
together and offering an opinion. And the opinion is based on which political
faction has managed to stack the ASHRE committee with their dominant voting
block.
That’s not the way to do this. I mean you’d think with the
amount of energy that buildings consume, and the amount of energy that
residential buildings consume, that maybe somebody, like the federal
government, would actually fund a study. You would need $20 million or $30
million and to go around and measure a whole slew of things in houses. That’s
not been done, but yet, changing the ventilation rate by 15 or 20 percent is
going to have more than that impact cost-wise on energy within the first year.
This kind of stuff drives me crazy. They manage to piss away
money on stupid s*** and they can’t seem to fund something that’s important.
And the same thing in commercial buildings. You know, people
are claiming that this level of
formaldehyde [10] is
dangerous and this level isn’t. What’s all of this based on? I mean most of the
limits and for indoor air in buildings we’re simply taking occupational numbers
and dividing by ten. Why not dividing by 12? Why not dividing by 15? In
California, because California is crazy on every conceivable level,
they
divide by 100 [11]. So, in one state the occupational
number because the indoor number by dividing by ten and California divided by
100. If people knew how arbitrary and capricious this was they’d go,
“Well, you’re kidding me.”
Inhabitat: Is California basing their numbers on European
models?
Joe Lstiburek: No. It wasn’t based on any
models. What’s amazing is formaldehyde in houses doesn’t respond to ventilation
rate changes. So if you’re ventilating at 0.1 versus 0.2 versus 0.3, the
formaldehyde concentration remains constant. The reason is the more you
ventilate the more it emits. You ventilate less it emits less. Don’t put it in
the building, that’s a phenomenally successful way of dealing with the problem.
I’ll give you another example, which will never happen, but
late at night I dream about it — have you’ve heard of the MSDS sheets?
Inhabitat: Sure.
Joe Lstiburek: They tell you absolutely nothing.
What people think that the MSDS sheets tells us is what the manufacturer puts
in their product. The answer is no. That would be useful if they told us
everything that went into this product and the quantities, but that’s viewed as
a trade secret.
What the MSDS sheet tells us is that if you put this into
the product, you have to tell us that it’s in the product and this comes from a
very short list of “this’es”. In other words, in order to get on that short
list it takes a lot of effort. It really has to be miserable and beyond a
shadow of a doubt, bad. So there’s a very short list of what you have to
notify.
What that means is that people are idiots to take anything
from that list, to put it in there. So they use a whole bunch of other things
that nobody knows anything about or haven’t made it to the list, but they don’t
have to tell you about it. I always laugh –LEED and other people
want you get to the MSDS sheet – and I’m saying “Why?” What you need to
do is you need to take one of the guys who makes this stuff out to dinner, get
him drunk, and ask him: “What’s in there?”
Inhabitat: Another study funding opportunity for the U.S.
government?
Joe Lstiburek: Well, not funding – basically,
change the law. Make them tell us what’s in their products.
Inhabitat: So that regulation would make complete sense?
Joe Lstiburek: Phenomenal sense. Tell us what’s
in it.
Inhabitat: Let’s get back to energy a little bit. Is
thermal bridging the next cusp of people’s thinking about how building
envelopes work?
Joe Lstiburek: Well, it’s no mystery to anybody
who knows about buildings that it’s a big deal. I’m kind of amused that people
are just figuring out well, glass is really bad and there’s too much it. Not
having insulation continuously is a big deal.
What’s even more important is that air tightness is even
more important. There’s no requirement for air tightness. How can you with a
straight face talk about energy efficiency and not have a requirement for air
tightness?
Inhabitat: How would you test for air tightness in a
large building?
Joe Lstiburek: It’s easy. Every building has a
mechanical system. You just simply open all of the interior doors and turn on
the exhaust fan and measure the pressure difference, then close the exhaust fan
and turn on the supply fan and measure the pressure difference. You got your
entire building leakage.
You don’t even need to do it that way. Just simply take a
compartment and measure the pressure in the compartment. You don’t have to
measure the whole building, just measure pieces of the building. There are a
lot of ways to do this.
I wrote about it in
Understanding
Air Barriers [12] on our web site and actually did
my doctoral dissertation on how some of this can be done. It’s just that it
takes about a half a day to set up the test and about 15 minutes to run the
test. For people that claim that this is complicated and hard, it’s just not
hard.
The problem is that because it is easy to do, and if you
actually do it and you create a performance requirement, people will have to
meet that requirement. That means they’re going to have to change what they do
and that’s what the problem is; people don’t want to change what they do.
Inhabitat: You have been successful in taking complex
building dynamics and making them relatively simple to understand. Do you think
that building science is less complicated than a lot of folks out there are
making it sound with a lot of hemming and hawing?
Joe Lstiburek: It’s a lot less complicated than
people say and my only observation is there’s a lot of money to be made in
keeping the peasants confused. I mean it’s so easy. What drives me crazy is
WUFI models and computer simulations. None of that is necessary, and most of it
is done wrong anyway.
I spend most of my time, and my firm spends a lot of time
debunking other people’s reports, saying, “You can’t possibly be saying this
based on what you did. The problem is the wall is leaking because you don’t
have a flashing. Your hygrothermal model has nothing to do with why this wall
is wet.”
Inhabitat: They couldn’t see the trees for the
forest.
Joe Lstiburek: They couldn’t see the water
through the trees.
Inhabitat: There you go. It sounds like, especially when
we start talking about air barriers, you just do that right than you solve a
lot of the other problems. You made a good living on buildings having lots of
moisture issues.
Joe Lstiburek: It’s been a hell of a good life.
I get to spend the entire winter in Aspen. Are you kidding me? The key to
spending your entire winter in Aspen is to find a woman to love and marry, stay
married to her, and get into fixing buildings. You need both.
Inhabitat: Good advice for the upcoming engineers who
read this. So what’s the take away? Is it that air barriers are the biggest
thing we need to focus on?
Joe Lstiburek: Well, no. Look, if I was in
charge of teaching architects
building
science becomes very simple [13]. Building enclosure is an
environmental separator. You want to keep the outside out and the inside in,
except when you want to bring the outside in and when you want to have the
inside out. That’s it and there are certain rules on how to do that.
I have this little list of rules and it all can be distilled
into we need a water controlled barrier, an air controlled barrier, a vapor
controlled barrier, and a thermal controlled barrier. Then we need a method of
exchanging the inside with the outside based on when we want to. That’s it,
there are sub-rules on how you do this, but that’s fundamentally it.
And I would have loved to written my own LEED standard. It
would have been a paragraph long and it would start off by saying, “Don’t do
stupid things,” and, “Do this,” and we’re done. “And measure everything,”
because if you can’t measure it, I don’t believe it.
Inhabitat: Are we looking at a climate specific
design?
Joe Lstiburek: Oh, I don’t believe that. The
wall-roof foundation assembly that I laid out works everywhere.
If you are doing poor assemblies you have to be very careful
climatically, but a good assembly works everywhere. The irony is that the
crappy assemblies are very climatically sensitive. The good assemblies are
climatically robust.
Inhabitat: So, does that mean state-of-the art is that we
can find wall systems that can be translated to work in almost any situation.
Joe Lstiburek: I have a little bit of fun with
this. I teach at the university now and I no longer fail stupid students
because that would be discriminating against stupid students. I say, “Look, I
have to pass you. You’re an idiot. I can’t fail you, but I’ll make a deal.
Promise me this – that regardless of where you end up and how long you
practice, you’re only going to use this wall design, and this roof design, and
this foundation design, because they work everywhere.”
Inhabitat: And forever.
Joe Lstiburek: And forever. Quite frankly, that
is true.
Inhabitat: So you feel confident that building science is
at the point now that we can build a quality envelope that we’ll feel
comfortable with 40 years from now. We go back, we tear that thing up, we’ll
feel that everything’s done what it needs to?
Joe Lstiburek: Oh, we were able to do that 50,
60 years ago. The answer is yes, we’re able to do that now and we were able to
do that before I was born. The irony is that even though that information has
been known for so long, it’s not been used. And my observation on that is that
people don’t use stuff until it becomes impossible for them to not use it. In
other words, things become intolerably bad before there’s a change or an
intervention. It’s only recently that things are becoming intolerably bad
enough that we have to intervene and fix, even though we knew or some folks
knew how to avoid the problems 50 or 60 years ago.
None of this is very complicated, none of this is a big
mystery. What’s happening now is that we need to get this information into the
people who need to make the decisions in an informed matter. In other words,
people aren’t inherently bad. They just don’t have the information they need at
the right time to make the right decision. So this is an information issue as
opposed to a research issue. We don’t need to do anymore research. We need to
do better transfer of what we know to the people who need to make the decisions
at the right time.
Inhabitat: So where is that information now? What are the
sources for working professionals to tap into this in a meaningful way?
Joe Lstiburek: Well, NIBS,
National Institute for Building Science [14] has
got a group called
BETEC [15] and
they’ve got some phenomenal design stuff online. I mean I hate to brag, but our
website
BuildingScience.com [16] is
pretty darn good. And it’s for free –actually not, you’ve already paid for
it. A lot of that work came out of government contracts that we were paid
to do.
Inhabitat: Very good.
Joe Lstiburek: That was a bit of humor there,
but you’re not laughing.
Inhabitat: I’ll write, “Ha-ha,” in there.
Joe Lstiburek: The big questions have been
answered consistently well by all of these groups and there are issues in the
margins, but they’re not big issues.
Inhabitat: When you go on the DoE web site there’s like
400 links or something like that to the energy software available, energy
modeling software, for instance. Now, is any of this stuff really –
Joe Lstiburek: Useful? No. No. No.
Inhabitat: Everybody is wishing to have that magic bullet
software?
Joe Lstiburek: Well, I view it as in love with
Star Trek. I blame it all on Star Trek. Spock could go into that shuttle bay
with his tricorder, do a tricorder scan and figure out that the tachyon field
was interfering with the dilythiam crystals, causing him to off-gas, which is
why Uhura has a headache. F**k that. We can’t measure s**t like that, but we
believe that we can measure everything.
Watch NCIS and Abby Sciuto, that babe in the lab – you know,
freaking does magical things and measures s**t and she does it all in 45
minutes, not counting commercials. It’s that we couldn’t do in 20 years even if
we had unlimited money and people think that you can simulate and measure
stuff. The world is not that clean and neat.
The best way we learn all of this is to build it and you see
what happened. You say, “Ah, this worked. This didn’t,” and that’s the best
education or information. That information lies in the experience base of the
older engineers, architects and contractors.
One of the biggest problems we have is what I call our own
institutional memory. We do a lousy job in construction, engineering and
architecture, passing on the lessons of one generation to the next. So we are
this huge, dysfunctional family. We need a Dr. Phil to get us all to talk to one
another, or an Oprah, or somebody.
Inhabitat: It’s amazing how many times you refer to the
fact that you would hypothesize something, come up with it and find it – it was
in the books in the ‘50s and the ‘40s and the ‘60s.
Joe Lstiburek: It’s funny. I am one of the most
frustrated, egotistical engineers on the planet. I thought I was a clever,
smart guy who figured out stuff and it turns out that nothing I’ve ever thought
I figured out did I actually figure out. It had been already done – better,
earlier, more elegantly by not just one person, by lots of people. And we’re
having all of these same discussions and arguments over and over and over
again.